Free Will vs God's Plan

[Dr. ibarfly Jones]

I am not going to lie. I am of course a true believer or free will. That in turns has a huge contradiction with God knowing everything and creating every and things happening because it was in God's Plan. I don't think you can have both. How do you veiw things? Do we have free will or are we playing parts in a play that God has created for mankind?

[Mr Dax]

apart from humans everything in our universe has a law.....the sun always rises and sets.....the bee wil always produce honey.....the earth will always orbit round the sun...etc but god gave humans freewill.....thats why imo he put us here to see he does good and who does bad

[Dr. ibarfly Jones]

so the saying God's Will is silly because it is all up to us.

[wedo-syang]

apart from humans everything in our universe has a law.....the sun always rises and sets.....the bee wil always produce honey.....the earth will always orbit round the sun...etc but god gave humans freewill.....thats why imo he put us here to see he does good and who does bad


So the humans get to judge what's right or not?? that'd be a whole lot of resbonsibility and as far as i've seen it we done fucked up big time.....

Yo Ibar WTF is your problem?? I mean I respect you and all but i swear you make like 3 threads a weeks where you state that you don't believe in god. C'mon man we get it!!! YOU DON'T BELIEVE IN GOD!! You tryna convert people to not believe or what? Are you on a mission or something?

[vexed less]

as for me thats a hard question...
i guess at times i think that the universe knows what its doin. Some minor or major event that effected me years ago has finally had an effect now.... which makes me question whether it was fate, coz coincidence just seems too much of a reach....

...but i do believe we are the creaters of our own reality's, therefore we make the choices that shape what we experience...

so personally i basically switch between the two depending on what sort of reassurance i am needing at the time of contemplation... seein neither answer is right why not make use of them both?

[Nikola Tesla]

I don't see what's so hard to understand about this

We have free will...our choices are our own

life is ours to make or mar

The Most High is all knowing so he knows what you will CHOOSE

In reality it's both

[KinDeezil]

apart from humans everything in our universe has a law.....the sun always rises and sets.....the bee wil always produce honey.....the earth will always orbit round the sun...etc but god gave humans freewill.....thats why imo he put us here to see he does good and who does bad

lol, you make God sound like Santa Claus(lol)....r* just playin homie, but on the real, humans make the existance of mankind deeper than it really is. We(as man, woman) are the crowning jewel of God's creation, EVERYTHING that was made is to give him glory. As someone previously stated, every other creation is bound to the law and ordinance of the Lord of Host, the human Host is the only creation that can refuse to line up with the will of God, which has always been to give Him glory. How do we give God glory? By keeping in step with obedience to Him,Adoni, Lord or master. Furthermore, the reason why God gave us will to do as we please on earth is because, UNlike all other creation, we were made in His image. We have a spirit, no non human life form has a spirit. And God is a Spirit, and they that worship Him must worship in spirit & in truth." John 4:23

[vexed less]

^^^see i aint intend to sound like an ass.... so excuse me if i do... BUT u say that humans are the only life form to have a spirit... at what point do you classify something as 'human'...
...i mean is a fetus classified as human?
...or wat about conjoint twins?
...what im gettin at is at what point is something classified as human?

i aint bein a smartass i just think that the people definitions are so 'cut n dried', this reality isnt as definite as its made out to be.... i think people gotta really challenge their beliefs before settling for such an assured answer.

[(--LazerScope-->>]

This has never made sense to me.

Ok, so God knows the future, right? And supposedly God gave Man "free will", right? So, if He already knows what we're going to do, why "do" anything at all.

By that it would mean that whether you make a right or wrong choice, you're inherently manifesting God's will anyways. So...it's all kinda pointless to me!

[Dr. ibarfly Jones]

I don't see what's so hard to understand about this

We have free will...our choices are our own

life is ours to make or mar

The Most High is all knowing so he knows what you will CHOOSE

In reality it's both

Then I don't see how you miss the contradiction. If man has free will then God's can know or design something to be because he has no idea of the outcome? If God does have a plan then the holocaust, the building of the pyramids, 9/11, my daughter's birth is all part of this divine plan? You can have both. Unless you are an expert in fitting a square peg into a circular fitting.

If God's knows all how can you be punished for your choices when he created you and he knew what you would do. Duh? This is not towards you Nick. But think about your stance. Please don't recite what you have been taught. I am interested in you using a little reason into this. I use comments made to advance or knocks down opinions I have about things we discuss. But I need you to use some intellect when responding. It is pointless to have an intellect forum and all people do is recite what was told to them. Analyze the questions, think about it from you perspective and then explain.

[Dr. ibarfly Jones]

So the humans get to judge what's right or not?? that'd be a whole lot of resbonsibility and as far as i've seen it we done fucked up big time.....

Yo Ibar WTF is your problem?? I mean I respect you and all but i swear you make like 3 threads a weeks where you state that you don't believe in god. C'mon man we get it!!! YOU DON'T BELIEVE IN GOD!! You tryna convert people to not believe or what? Are you on a mission or something?

LOL, don't worry I can't or don't try to convert anyone about anything other than P Pat is the truth in the south. I never said I don't believe in God. I believe in the possibility of his existence, but doubt it. I'm envious of those than have peace of mind that they may be rewarded in the afterlife. LOL, I got to laugh. You remind me other the sisters and brothers and school that gave me demerits for asking questions. questions are just how people ask and obtain knowledge. I asked the question because I'm interested to know how other view the subject. My questions was free will or god's plan. Does that infer there is no God? No it is asking which plays a bigger role in our life or fate. Our free will (which can exist with god's presence) or God's plan (which would not be without him.) Keep your insecurities to yourself than blast me. Especially when the question is inferring God exist. If you have something worthwhile to add then do so. If not the stay quiet.

[ST1llmatic]

i dont believe in god so im goin with free will. imo god/religion is just a means to justify our being and make us feel less helpless and shit. its like people dont want to face that they live once and then thats it so they want to believe in a higher power and afterlife or reincarnation.

[DA_LOW]

i dont believe in god so im goin with free will. imo god/religion is just a means to justify our being and make us feel less helpless and shit. its like people dont want to face that they live once and then thats it so they want to believe in a higher power and afterlife or reincarnation.



I share the same sentiments, but I understand the need for religion. Just imagining a society without a higher belief other than the physical would be unimaginable. Complete anarchy would be the best way to describe the end result. As mortals we are subject to errors. When a person begins to realize that we are indeed self governed and free thinkers insanity will undoubtly set in. With that in my mind I'm pro religion. People need purpose. The aftermath of Katrina and the LA riots were a result of lost hope.

[ST1llmatic]

that was the result of being tired of injustice. people can police themselves. the commandments are man made and are a way to police actions in catholicism. why would insanity set in if it was revealed that there was no higher power. the renaissance was considered a period of great human advancement and it revealed several things which contradicted religion and changed the perspective of humans in relation to the world. it didnt lead to insanity

[Dr. ibarfly Jones]

that was the result of being tired of injustice. people can police themselves. the commandments are man made and are a way to police actions in catholicism. why would insanity set in if it was revealed that there was no higher power. the renaissance was considered a period of great human advancement and it revealed several things which contradicted religion and changed the perspective of humans in relation to the world. it didnt lead to insanity

yeah, I had to laugh. What if you don't believe in a higher being you go ape shit? I think without the fear of punishment in the afterlife most people have common sense and morals. But let's not get off track on the subject of this thread.

[ST1llmatic]

the way i see it is i dont believe in god. i dont go out and do all sorts of dumb shit. i do things people look down upon i.e sex out of wedlock, smoke, drink, curse but that doesnt make me a bad person. i dont need religion or "god" to tell me what is right or wrong. there are many people believe in a god or follow an organized religion and stray from their beliefs and do some foul ass shit so that whole the world would go apeshit without a higher power argument holds no power cuz even though people believe in it foul ass shit goes on like crazy. ever heard of the spanish inquisition and the crusades?

[vexed less]

i dont believe in god so im goin with free will. imo god/religion is just a means to justify our being and make us feel less helpless and shit. its like people dont want to face that they live once and then thats it so they want to believe in a higher power and afterlife or reincarnation.

...denying the existance of other realities (the afterlife or other spiritual realms) is as ignorant as denying this worlds existance...

...say a blind, deaf man named Tom was in a car crash and became a paraplegic from the neck up... his reality would differ than that of a person with the sense of sight, hearing and touch....
...so denying the existance of other worlds, like the afterlife, would be as blind as Tom saying this world doesnt exist just because he doesnt relise he exists in it.

...ya dig?

[ST1llmatic]

the afterlife cannot be proved or disproved. where is the ignorance in saying it does not exist. in your example tom would be ignorant for saying our world didnt exist cuz he experienced it and then had a life altering experience that allows him not to live life the way he did. if i actually witnessed the afterlife then came back and said it didnt exist i agree that would be ignorant. however not needing to believe in god or follow a religion to cope with existance is not ignorant. to each their own. im not stupid enough to believe that i can convince people that god and the afterlife dont exist, i just chose not to believe in that shit myself

[vexed less]

^^ fair enough... just for the record i dont believe in 'God' but more a divine type of underlining essence.... i do not follow any sort of a religion, but i do meditate.... which is a steppin stone toward experiencing the realities which u said u have not touched on yet.... u should give it a go.

[ST1llmatic]

not interested. i was raised catholic and took a religion survey in college. the combination of those has turned me away for good

[Lord Almighty]

Then again.....going back to our 5 Percenter conversation.....if you ARE God then you have both free will and the will of God at your disposal...

[4anybody...]

free will vs predestination is a paradox that ppl use to hide behind because you can both prove and disprove the idea rationally--its a perennial conundrum whos answer will always depend on the person

the real question is what are your morals and how do you come justify them

[ElCount]

^^^ Explain the first part please...

[Dr. ibarfly Jones]

^^^^ Yeah I'm with El is this one. You got to explain this one. I don't think you can prove either. It is just one of them things. I'm more interested in what people think about this subject. The real question is the one I asked, lol. I don't care about "the real question is what are your morals and how do you come justify them" I want to know what you think about free will. Is it an illusion or what?

[Dr. ibarfly Jones]

Then again.....going back to our 5 Percenter conversation.....if you ARE God then you have both free will and the will of God at your disposal...You answer a question with a statement that needs clarification. Explain your position please.

[Mr Dax]

i didnt say god doesnnt have a clue of what will happen regarding human behaviour. i said he gave humans a choice to choose how they want to live their lives......god knows everything b4 its happend but he still put us on earth to see who r the rightous and who are the trangressors.

*{He it is Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days—and His Throne was over the waters—that He might try you, which of you is best in conduct...}* (Hud 11:7)

And again,

*{He Who created Death and Life, that He may try which of you is best in deed: and He is the Exalted in Might, Oft-Forgiving}* (Al-Mulk 67:2)

[Dr. ibarfly Jones]

Then again.....going back to our 5 Percenter conversation.....if you ARE God then you have both free will and the will of God at your disposal...You answer a question with a statement that needs clarification. Explain your position please.

[Dr. ibarfly Jones]

i didnt say god doesnnt have a clue of what will happen regarding human behaviour. i said he gave humans a choice to choose how they want to live their lives......god knows everything b4 its happend but he still put us on earth to see who r the rightous and who are the trangressors.

*{He it is Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days—and His Throne was over the waters—that He might try you, which of you is best in conduct...}* (Hud 11:7)

And again,

*{He Who created Death and Life, that He may try which of you is best in deed: and He is the Exalted in Might, Oft-Forgiving}* (Al-Mulk 67:2)

You are speaking in circles. If God knows everything before it happens then how can we chose a different path? How can we be punished for our actions if God made us and knew what choices we would make. Saying we have free will doesn't make sense if our action is preordained. We can change that if it the outcome has been determined. I believe in free will but if I believed God knows all then I have think my decisions are already known to God. So if you did something wrong, couldn't you take the path to say "this must be what god wanted if I did it. Because you couldn't change it because he already saw it.

[Mr Dax]

There are two extreme points of view about what we call fate or destiny. One is that we are completely helpless and our decisions have no impact on what is going to happen to us. This approach to life is usually called fatalism. If you hold this belief, it is reasonable to ask the question: Why can’t we just sit back and wait for the events of our future to unfold?

The second point of view is that things happen according to our plan and execution and that we are to get the credit or the blame for them. This is the point of view expressed by Cassius in Shakespeare’s play, Julius Caesar: “Men at some time are the masters of their fates. The fault is not in our stars, but in ourselves, that we are underlings.…”

Islam teaches a third view, which is somewhere in the middle between the above two:

From the Islamic point of view, Allah is in control, no doubt. This means that Allah knows everything and that it is according to His will that things happen here. But this does not mean that Allah interferes in everything that He has set in motion. He created everything, and set down laws we usually call laws of nature, by which the universe functions. We human beings have no way of changing these laws of Allah as well as the many “givens” in life such as our race, nationality, mother tongue, etc.

But at the same time, out of His infinite wisdom and mercy, Allah Almighty gave Man power and freedom—within limits—which enable him to enjoy freedom of choice. Now your question is: If Allah is completely in control, how can He punish us for our wrongdoings, when He could have prevented them?

Allah could have made us automatons or robots that are completely free from doing wrong. But in that case, we would be mere machines without any freedom of choice or intelligence of our own.

According to the Qur’an, Man has been appointed as Allah’s khalifah (vicegerent or ambassador) on earth. This actually means that Man is given many of the qualities of Allah the Exalted Himself, of course within limits. Everything on earth has been created for Man; and it is his duty to make use of all the blessings Allah has given him for his progress and development.

This is possible only if he is free and has faculties like intelligence, imagination, etc. By bestowing all these on Man, Allah wants to test Man about his performance here on earth. Allah knows the outcome of this test beforehand because He knows the future; but for Man it is a test, as he feels he is a creator in his own right. Man can get a lot of satisfaction from using his planning skills and creative urge as long as he is here on earth.

Allah says in the Qur’an what means:

*{Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: “I will create a vicegerent on earth.” They said: “Wilt Thou place therein one who will make mischief therein and shed blood?- whilst we do celebrate Thy praises and glorify Thy holy [name]?” He said: “I know what ye know not”}* (Al-Baqarah 2:30).

The question asked by the angels is about “the risk involved” (I say this just to make things clear; and may Allah forgive me!): that the freedom given to Man would mean mischief and bloodshed. This suggests that when humans are given freedom, there is the chance of their misusing that freedom for doing wrong. It is because of this freedom that Allah can punish us. If He had not given us freedom, then there is no question of punishment because Allah is All-Just. It is clearly said in the Qur’an that Allah will not do the least bit of injustice. The Qur’an says what means:

*{The word changes not before Me, and I do not the least injustice to My servants}* (Qaf 50:29).

And again:

*{Whoever has done an atom’s weight of good shall get its reward and whoever has done an atom’s weight of evil shall meet with its consequences}* (Az-Zalzalah 99:7-8).

Everything is accounted for, and nothing is wasted in Allah’s scheme of things. Allah, out of His infinite mercy, has given Man guidance too, to help him use his freedom and faculties to his own benefit and live a meaningful life here. Allah wants Man to use the freedom given in accordance with His guidance. In other words, the scope and potential of Man’s freedom is within the framework of God’s jurisdiction and control. For this reason, we may say that Man is not a master of his fate; nor is he a mere cog in the wheel of destiny.

You ask, “If we are destined to fail, then why do we pray to Allah to achieve success?”

The answer is: Allah knows what is going to happen in your case. But as far as you are concerned, your success or failure depends on so many factors. Some of these factors are at your disposal; Allah has willed it to be so. Some other factors are out of your control. You pray to Allah because Allah can hear your prayer and answer it, and if He wills it, He can remove those factors that may cause your failure so that you will be successful. It is not reasonable for you to say that the results will be the same whether you study or not; and you do not know the results in advance. Allah has said in the Qur’an that He will not waste the good work done by anyone. Allah is Ever-Active and Watchful; remember that.

Also note that Allah says in the Qur’an what means:

*{Allah will never change the condition of a people until they change what is in themselves}* (Ar-Ra`d 13:11).

This underscores our role here on earth. In fact, taqdir as used in the Qur’an stands for the latent possibilities Allah has invested in the nature of things; and it does not imply denying human beings the freedom of will or action. We must be humble enough to acknowledge our need for divine guidance to protect ourselves from doing wrong things, to keep ourselves upright and steady in times of trials.

Thus from the Islamic point of view, it is our willful choice of the right actions from a number of inherent possibilities that earns us our reward from Allah Almighty. And the right actions are exactly those actions in conformity with divine guidance. So we must always strive to make our choices and actions be in harmony with the guidance of Allah Almighty.

And Allah knows best.

[Dr. ibarfly Jones]

interesting, but is this what you believe Dax? I read the entire link. fatalism is stupid, but the readers questions are good. http://www.readingislam.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-AAbout_Islam/AskAboutIslamE/AskAboutIslamE&cid=1123996016456

However, I am really interested in your perspective.

[Dr. ibarfly Jones]

wiki says

Free will in Hindu philosophy
Swami Vivekananda: "there cannot be any such thing as free-will; the very words are a contradiction".
Swami Vivekananda: "there cannot be any such thing as free-will; the very words are a contradiction".

The six orthodox (astika) schools of thought in Hindu philosophy do not agree with each other entirely on the question of free will. For the Samkhya, for instance, matter is without any freedom, and soul lacks any ability to control the unfolding of matter. The only real freedom (kaivalya) consists in realizing the ultimate separateness of matter and self. For the Yoga school, only Ishvara is truly free, and its freedom is also distinct from all feelings, thoughts, actions, or wills, and is thus not at all a freedom of will. The metaphysics of the Nyaya and Vaisheshika schools strongly suggest a belief in determinism, but do not seem to make explicit claims about determinism or free will.[84]

A quotation from Swami Vivekananda, a Vedantist, offers a good example of the worry about free will in the Hindu tradition.

Therefore we see at once that there cannot be any such thing as free-will; the very words are a contradiction, because will is what we know, and everything that we know is within our universe, and everything within our universe is moulded by conditions of time, space and causality. ... To acquire freedom we have to get beyond the limitations of this universe; it cannot be found here.[85]

However, the above quote has often been misinterpreted by people. They feel that Vivekananda implied that everything is predetermined. What Vivekananda actually meant by lack of free will was that the will was not "free" because it was heavily influenced by the law of cause and effect. However, Vivekananda never said that it was absolutely determined and placed emphasis on the power of conscious choice to alter one's past Karma.

The following two quotations by Vivekananda provide a clearer view.

It is the coward and the fool who says this is his fate. But it is the strong man who stands up and says I will make my own fate

The will is not free, it is a phenomenon bound by cause and effect, but there is something behind the will which is free.

Another way to look at the question of free will in Indian philosophy is to look at the following article about free will, evolution and chaos theory. It provides a nice synthesis of Indian karma and modern physical world point of view.[1]

Mimamsa, Vedanta, and the more theistic versions of Hinduism such as Shaivism and Vaishnavism, have often emphasized the importance of free will. The doctrine of Karma in Hinduism requires both that we pay for our actions in the past, and that our actions in the present be free enough to allow us to deserve the future reward or punishment that we will receive for our present actions. The Advaitin philosopher Chandrashekhara Bharati Swaminah puts it this way:

Fate is past karma, free-will is present karma. Both are really one, that is, karma, though they may differ in the matter of time. There can be no conflict when they are really one.

Fate, as I told you, is the resultant of the past exercise of your free-will. By exercising your free-will in the past, you brought on the resultant fate. By exercising your free-will in the present, I want you to wipe out your past record if it hurts you, or to add to it if you find it enjoyable. In any case, whether for acquiring more happiness or for reducing misery, you have to exercise your free-will in the present.[86]

[Dr. ibarfly Jones]

wiki says

Free will in Buddhist philosophy

Buddhism accepts both freedom and determinism (or something similar to it), but rejects the idea of an agent, and thus the idea that freedom is a free will belonging to an agent.[87]

The Buddha said, "There is free action, there is retribution, but I see no agent that passes out from one set of momentary elements into another one, except the [connection] of those elements."[87]

Buddhism believes in neither absolute free will, nor determinism. It preaches a middle doctrine called pratitya-samutpada in Sanskrit, which is often translated as "inter-dependent arising". It is part of the theory of karma in Buddhism. The concept of karma in Buddhism is different from the notion of karma in Hinduism. In Buddhism, the idea of karma is much less deterministic. The Buddhist notion of karma is primarily focussed on the cause and effect of moral actions in this life, while in Hinduism the concept of karma is more often connected with determining one's destiny in future lives.

In Buddhism it is taught that the idea of absolute freedom of choice (i.e. that any human being could be completely free to make any choice) is foolish, because it denies the reality of one's physical needs and circumstances. Equally incorrect is the idea that we have no choice in life or that our lives are pre-determined. To deny freedom would be to undermine the efforts of Buddhists to make moral progress (through our capacity to freely choose compassionate action). Pubbekatahetuvada, the belief that all happiness and suffering arise from previous actions, is considered a wrong view according to Buddhist doctrines.

Because Buddhists also reject agenthood, the traditional compatibilist strategies are closed to them as well. Instead, the Buddhist philosophical strategy is to examine the metaphysics of causality. Ancient India had many heated arguments about the nature of causality with Jains, Nyayists, Samkhyists, Cārvākans, and Buddhists all taking slightly different lines. In many ways, the Buddhist position is closer to a theory of "conditionality" than a theory of "causality", especially as it is expounded by Nagarjuna in the Mūlamadhyamakakārikā.[87]

A contemporary American monk, Thanissaro Bhikkhu, puts it this way:

"The Buddha's teachings on karma are

[Mr Dax]

yes i believe that......im 100% convinced in my religion and everything the quran says......i honestly believe were in this world as preperation for the afterlife......and if u want a good afterlife u have to follow gods law.......thats wy i dont drink, do extreme bad things and i pray as much as i can.....god is most forgiving and if u ask for forgivness and stop doing bad things eveyone can b guided......thats my belief

[Dr. ibarfly Jones]

wiki says

In Christian thought

In Christian theology, God is described as not only omniscient but omnipotent; a notion which some people, Christians and non-Christians alike, believe implies that not only has God always known what choices individuals will make tomorrow, but has actually determined those choices. That is, they believe, by virtue of his foreknowledge he knows what will influence individual choices, and by virtue of his omnipotence he controls those factors. This becomes especially important for the doctrines relating to salvation and predestination. Other branches, such as Methodists, believe that while God is omnipotent and knows the choices that individuals will make, he still gives individuals the power to ultimately choose (or reject) everything, regardless of any internal or external conditions relating to the choice. For example, when Jesus was nailed on the cross, the two criminals, one on each side, were about to die. Only one asked Jesus for forgiveness while the other, even at the end of his life with nothing else to lose, mocked Jesus. In the view of Methodists and others who believe in free will, this was a free choice of everlasting death over everlasting life.

[edit] In Calvinism

Calvinists embrace the idea that God chose who would be saved from before the creation. They quote Ephesians 1:4 "For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight" and also 2:8 "For it is by grace you are saved, through faith, and this not of yourselves, it is the gift of God." One of the strongest defenders of this theological point of view was the Puritan-American preacher and theologian Jonathan Edwards.

Edwards believed that indeterminism was incompatible with individual dependence on God and hence with his sovereignty. He reasoned that if individuals' responses to God's grace are contra-causally free, then their salvation depends partly on them and therefore God's sovereignty is not "absolute and universal." Edward's book Freedom of the Will defends theological determinism. In this book, Edwards attempts to show that libertarianism is incoherent. For example, he argues that by 'self-determination' the libertarian must mean either that one's actions including one's acts of willing are preceded by an act of free will or that one's acts of will lack sufficient causes. The first leads to an infinite regress while the second implies that acts of will happen accidentally and hence can't make someone "better or worse, any more than a tree is better than other trees because it oftener happens to be lit upon by a swan or nightingale; or a rock more vicious than other rocks, because rattlesnakes have happened oftener to crawl over it." [1]

It should not be thought that this view completely denies freedom of choice, however. It claims that man is free to act on his moral impulses and desires, but is not free to act contrary to them, or to change them. Proponents, such as John L. Girardeau, have indicated their belief that moral neutrality is impossible; that even if it were possible, and one were equally inclined to contrary options, one could make no choice at all; that if one is inclined, however slightly, toward one option, then that person will necessarily chose that one over any others.

Non-Calvinist Christians attempt a reconciliation of the dual concepts of Predestination and free will by pointing to the situation of God as Christ. In taking the form of a man, a necessary element of this process was that Jesus Christ lived the existence of a mortal. When Jesus was born he was not born with the omniscient power of God the Creator, but with the mind of a human child - yet he was still fully God. The precedent this creates is that God is able to abandon knowledge, or ignore knowledge, while still remaining God. Thus it is not inconceivable that although omniscience demands that God knows what the future holds for individuals, it is within his power to deny this knowledge in order to preserve individual free will.

However, a reconciliation more compatible with non-Calvinist theology states that God is, in fact, not aware of future events, but rather, being eternal, He is outside time, and sees the past, present, and future as one whole creation. Consequently, it is not as though God would know "in advance" that Jeffrey Dahmer would become guilty of homicide years prior to the event as an example, but that He was aware of it from all eternity, viewing all time as a single present. This was the view offered by Boëthius in Book V of the Consolation of Philosophy.

Loraine Boettner argued that the doctrine of divine foreknowledge does not escape the alleged problems of divine foreordination. He wrote that "what God foreknows must, in the very nature of the case, be as fixed and certain as what is foreordained; and if one is inconsistent with the free agency of man, the other is also. Foreordination renders the events certain, while foreknowledge presupposes that they are certain."[1] Some Christian theologians, feeling the bite of this argument, have opted to limit the doctrine of foreknowledge if not do away with it altogether, thus forming a new school of thought, similar to Socinianism and Process Theology, called Open Theism.

[edit] In Catholicism

Theologians of the Catholic Church universally embrace the idea of free will, but generally do not view free will as existing apart, from or in contradiction to grace. St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas wrote extensively on free will, with Augustine focusing on the importance of free will in his responses to the Manichaeans, and also on the limitations of a concept of unlimited free will as denial of grace, in his refutations of Pelagius. Catholic Christianity's emphasis on free will and grace is often contrasted with predestination in Reformed Protestant Christianity, especially after the Counter-Reformation, but in understanding differing conceptions of free will it is just as important to understand the differing conceptions of the nature of God, focusing on the idea that God can be all-powerful and all-knowing even while people continue to exercise free will, because God does not exist in time (see the link to Catholic Encyclopedia below for more).

[edit] In Eastern Christianity

[edit] Oriental Orthodox

The concept of free will is also very important in the Oriental Orthodox Churches, especially in the Coptic affiliated ones. As in Judaism, free will is regarded as axiomatic. Everyone is regarded as having a free choice as to in what measure he or she will follow his or her conscience or arrogance, these two having been appointed for each individual. The more one follows one's conscience, the more it brings one good results, and the more one follows one's arrogance, the more it brings one bad results. Following only one's arrogance is sometimes likened to the dangers of falling into a pit while walking in pitch darkness, without the light of conscience to illuminate the path. Very similar doctrines have also found written expression in the Dead Sea Scrolls "Manual of Discipline", and in some religious texts possessed by the Beta Israel Jews of Ethiopia.

[edit] Eastern Orthodox

Dostoevsky (an Eastern Orthodox Christian) the novelist suggested many arguments for and against free will. Famous arguments are the Grand Inquisitor, Notes from the underground and the argument that suicide, if chosen out of the irrational, was validation of freewill (see Kirilov in the Demons) novel. As for the argument presented in The Brothers Karamazov's section "The Rebellion" that the suffering of innocents was not worth the price of freewill, Dostoevsky appears to propose the idea of Apocatastasis as one possible rational solution.

[edit] In Mormonism

See Agency (Mormonism) for main article.

Mormons or Latter-day Saints, believe that God has given all humans the gift of moral agency. Moral agency includes free will and agency. Proper exercise of unfettered choice leads to the ultimate goal of returning to God's presence. Having the choice to do right or wrong was important, because God wants a society of a certain type -- those that comply with eternal laws. Before this Earth was created, this dispute over agency rose to the level that there was a "war in heaven." Lucifer (who favored no agency) and his followers were cast out of heaven for rebelling against God's will. Many Mormon leaders have also taught that the battle in Heaven over agency is now being carried out on earth[citation needed], where dictators, influenced by Satan, fight against freedom (or free agency) in governments. contrary to the will of God.

Mormons also believe in a limited form of foreordination; not in deterministic unalterable decrees, but rather callings from God for individuals to perform specific missions in mortality. Those who are foreordained can reject the foreordination, either outright or by transgressing the laws of God and becoming unworthy to fulfill the call.

[edit] In the New Church

The New Church, or Swedenborgianism, teaches that every person has complete freedom to choose heaven or hell. Emanuel Swedenborg, upon whose writings the New Church is founded, argued that if God is love itself, people must have free will. If God is love itself, then He desires no harm to come to anyone: and so it is impossible that he would predestine anyone to hell. On the other hand, if God is love itself, then He must love things outside of Himself; and if people do not have the freedom to choose evil, they are simply extensions of God, and He cannot love them as something outside of Himself. In addition, Swedenborg argues that if a person does not have free will to choose goodness and faith, then all of the commandments in the Bible to love God and the neighbor are worthless, since no one can choose to do them - and it is impossible that a God who is love itself and wisdom itself would give impossible commandments.

[edit] Other Views

Free will is also a point of debate among both sides of the Christian communist theory. Because some Christians interpret the Bible as advocating that the ideal form of society is communism,[citation needed] opponents of this theory maintain that the establishment of a large-scale communist system would infringe upon the free will of individuals by denying them the freedom to make certain decisions for themselves.[citation needed] Christian communists adamantly oppose this by arguing that free will has and always will be limited to some extent by human laws.[citation needed]

[edit] In Jewish thought

The belief in Free will (Hebrew: bechirah chofshith בחירה חפשית, bechirah בחירה) is axiomatic in Jewish thought, and is closely linked with the concept of reward and punishment, based on the Torah itself: "I [God] have set before you life and death, blessing and curse: therefore choose life" ( Deuteronomy 30:19).

Free will is therefore discussed at length in Jewish philosophy, firstly as regards God's purpose in creation, and secondly as regards the closely related, resultant, paradox. The topic is also often discussed in connection with Negative theology, Divine simplicity and Divine Providence, as well as Jewish principles of faith in general.

[edit] Free will and creation

The traditional teaching regarding the purpose of creation, particularly as influenced by Jewish mysticism, is that "This world is like a corridor to the World to Come" (Pirkei Avoth 4:16). "Man was created for the sole purpose of rejoicing in God, and deriving pleasure from the splendor of His Presence… The place where this joy may truly be derived is the World to Come, which was expressly created to provide for it; but the path to the object of our desires is this world..." (Moshe Chaim Luzzatto, Mesillat Yesharim, Ch.1). Free will is thus required by God's justice, “otherwise, Man would not be given or denied good for actions over which he had no control” [2].

It is further understood that in order for Man to have true free choice, he must not only have inner free will, but also an environment in which a choice between obedience and disobedience exists. God thus created the world such that both good and evil can operate freely [3]; this is the meaning of the Rabbinic maxim, "All is in the hands of Heaven except the fear of Heaven" (Talmud, Berachot 33b).

[edit] The paradox of free will

In Rabbinic literature, there is much discussion as to the apparent contradiction between God's omniscience and free will. The representative view is that "Everything is foreseen; yet free will is given" (Rabbi Akiva, Pirkei Avoth 3:15). Based on this understanding, the problem is formally described as a paradox, beyond our understanding.
“ The Holy One, Blessed Be He, knows everything that will happen before it has happened. So does He know whether a particular person will be righteous or wicked, or not? If He does know, then it will be impossible for that person not to be righteous. If He knows that he will be righteous but that it is possible for him to be wicked, then He does not know everything that He has created. ...[T]he Holy One, Blessed Be He, does not have any temperaments and is outside such realms, unlike people, whose selves and temperaments are two separate things. God and His temperaments are one, and God's existence is beyond the comprehension of Man… [Thus] we do not have the capabilities to comprehend how the Holy One, Blessed Be He, knows all creations and events. [Nevertheless] know without doubt that people do what they want without the Holy One, Blessed Be He, forcing or decreeing upon them to do so... It has been said because of this that a man is judged according to all his actions. (Maimonides, Mishneh Torah, Teshuva 5:5) ”

The paradox is explained, but not resolved, by observing that God exists outside of time, and therefore, His knowledge of the future is exactly the same as His knowledge of the past and present. Just as His knowledge of the past does not interfere with man's free will, neither does His knowledge of the future [4]. This distinction, between foreknowledge and predestination, is in fact discussed by Maimonides' critic Abraham ibn Daud; see Hasagat HaRABaD ad loc.

(One analogy here is that of time travel. The time traveller, having returned from the future, knows in advance what x will do, but while he knows what x will do, that knowledge does not cause x to do so: x had free will, even while the time traveller had foreknowledge; see [5]. However, one objection raised against this analogy – and ibn Daud’s distinction – is that if x truly has free will, he may choose to act otherwise when the event in question comes to pass, and therefore the time traveller (or God) merely has knowledge of a possible event: even having seen the event, there is no way to know with certainty what x will do; see the view of Gersonides below. Further, the presence of the time traveller, may have had some chaotic effect on x's circumstances and choice, absent when the event comes to pass in the present.)

[edit] Alternate approaches

Although the above discussion of the paradox represents the majority Rabbinic view, there are several major thinkers who resolve the issue by explicitly excluding human action from divine foreknowledge.

Both Saadia Gaon and Judah ha-Levi hold that "the decisions of man precede God's knowledge" [6]. Gersonides holds that God knows, beforehand, the choices open to each individual, but does not know which choice the individual, in his freedom, will make. Isaiah Horowitz takes the view that God cannot know which moral choices people will make, but that, nevertheless, this does not impair His perfection.

In line with this thinking, the teaching from Pirkei Avoth above, is read as: "Everything is observed (while - and no matter where - it happens), and (since the actor is unaware of being observed) free will is given ".

See further discussion in the article on Gersonides.

[edit] In Kabbalistic thought

The existence of free will, and the paradox above (as addressed by either approach), is closely linked to the concept of Tzimtzum. Tzimtzum entails the idea that God "constricted" his infinite essence, to allow for the existence of a "conceptual space" in which a finite, independent world could exist. This "constriction" made free will possible, and hence the potential to earn the World to Come.

Further, according to the first approach, it is understood that the Free-will Omniscience paradox provides a temporal parallel to the paradox inherent within Tzimtzum. In granting free will, God has somehow "constricted" his foreknowledge, to allow for Man's independent action; He thus has foreknowledge and yet free will exists. In the case of Tzimtzum, God has "constricted" his essence to allow for Man's independent existence; He is thus immanent and yet transcendent.

[edit] In Islamic thought

Disputes about free will in Islam began with the Kharijite vs Murji'ite disputes, with the Kharijites arguing that humans had "qadar," the capacity to do right or wrong, and thus deserved the reward or punishment they received, whereas Murji'ites insisted on God's "jabr," or total power and initiative in managing all events.[2] Later thinkers such as Abu Hanifa and al-Ash'ari searched for ways to explain how both human qadar, and divine jabr could be asserted at the same time. Ash'ari develops a "dual agency" or "acquisition" account of free will in which every human action has two distinct agents. God creates the act with his divine jabr, but then the human "acquires" the act, making it theirs and taking responsibility for it using their human qadar.[3]

[edit] In Hinduism

As Hinduism is primarily a conglomerate of different religious traditions[4] there is no one accepted view on the concept of free-will. Within the predominant schools of Hindu philosophy there are two main opinions. The Advaita (monistic) schools generally believe in a fate based approach, and the Dvaita (dualistic) schools are proponents for the theory of free will.[5] The different school's understandings are based upon their conceptions of the nature of the Supreme being (see Brahman, Paramatma and Ishvara) and how the individual soul (atma or jiva) dictates, or is dictated by karma within the illusory existence of maya.

In both Dvaita and Advaita schools, and also in the many other traditions within Hinduism there is a strong belief in destiny[6] and that both the past and future are known, or viewable, by certain saints or mystics as well as by the Supreme being (Ishvara) in traditions where Ishvara is worshipped as an all knowing being. In the Bhagavad Gita, the avatar, Krishna says to Arjuna:

* I know everything that has happened in the past, all that is happening in the present, and all things that are yet to come. [7]

However this belief in destiny is not necessarily believed to rule out the existence of free-will, as in some cases both free-will and destiny are believed to exist simultaneously.[8][9]

[Dr. ibarfly Jones]

yes i believe that......im 100% convinced in my religion and everything the quran says......i honestly believe were in this world as preperation for the afterlife......and if u want a good afterlife u have to follow gods law.......thats wy i dont drink, do extreme bad things and i pray as much as i can.....god is most forgiving and if u ask for forgivness and stop doing bad things eveyone can b guided......thats my belief

I never questioned that homie. I'm just trying to understand what and how YOU reconcile free will and god's plan. I understand your religion has a way with incorporating both. Still, I'm confused because if I am to believe based on the Islam faith that we have free will. We are judge by the choices we make at judgement day. Why even be judge if God knew what choices we were going to pick anyways. Also is it really free will if he knows. I see how Islam tries to make it tidy, but if anything it tries to have both, but muddles is even more. This does bring up a bigger question. What is the purpose of judgement day. I mean God already know what we are going to do.

This free will is my favorite theological topic. I really comes down to what you have been taught and what you believe.

[Lord Almighty]

You answer a question with a statement that needs clarification. Explain your position please.

I think I made myself very clear. If you go back to our 5 Percenter conversation regarding how 5 Percenters view themselves (Black man being God) then it's quite possible to have free will and the will of God present and at your disposal because both are one in the same.

The free choices we make are God's choices because we have God in us.

[Dr. ibarfly Jones]

I think I made myself very clear. If you go back to our 5 Percenter conversation regarding how 5 Percenters view themselves (Black man being God) then it's quite possible to have free will and the will of God present and at your disposal because both are one in the same.

The free choices we make are God's choices because we have God in us. I am not sure about the will of god thing. I am talking about free will vs god's omnipresence and the preordain nature of that power.

so thinking about it more i guess you can't answer because god is not a supreme deity to you. am i correct?

[KinDeezil]

God did not create mankind to be clones, we were created to give God glory, period. You have the "free will" to either, do the will of God or fellowship with God & the context of all creation or not. It's that simple. Fly, your trying to reason the thoughts og God and your mind(like everyone elses) is finite. We are all trying to explain something too wonderful & complicated for us to ever understand it, and the reason is because none of us are Elohim. A God that can be deduce to our finite mortal explanations is not a God worth acknowledging at all. Good conversation sure, but thats the exent of it. We were all put here to give God glory. All things created declares God's glory, cause when you trace the root of EVERYTHING(even free will), it all points back to God soveringty.

[onema]

my view (which shares its roots in the philosophy of Bento de Spinoza, Gotfried Leibniz, and later Albert Eistein) is that God is the only substance and that everything we can think see or feel are extentions or modes of God, in essence we are part of God and therefore are god.

God is the absolute power of nature, He (we shouldn't even be saying HE, it's a result of human chauvinism) is perfect and doesn't need to create humans to worship him to add to his perfectness. so there goes the god mad man to worship him idea.

God's inventory is identical to his wish list, God has no will because everything that can be done is done by his absolute power. he has no choice and therefore no plan, the actions of God that include trees, ppl, mice and rocks, are results of Gods absolute power being manifested. it wasn't a man in the sky saying oh this rock will look pretty here. to god there is no beauty or ugliness, no good or bad, it takes a human mind to discern between these extremes and everything is equal under gods eye.

theres a lot more to it but if ur interested in where this is going read Spinoza's book "the ethics" especially the section "On God"


he was the first biblical critic and created an idea of God from the ground up that wasnt reliant on hearsay and didnt depict him as a white bearded man sitting on a cloud.

[Dr. ibarfly Jones]

Thanks for the ideas dudes. I appreciate you guys spending a moment to explain your veiwpoints. Thanks!

[vexed less]

my view (which shares its roots in the philosophy of Bento de Spinoza, Gotfried Leibniz, and later Albert Eistein) is that God is the only substance and that everything we can think see or feel are extentions or modes of God, in essence we are part of God and therefore are god.

God is the absolute power of nature, He (we shouldn't even be saying HE, it's a result of human chauvinism) is perfect and doesn't need to create humans to worship him to add to his perfectness. so there goes the god mad man to worship him idea.

God's inventory is identical to his wish list, God has no will because everything that can be done is done by his absolute power. he has no choice and therefore no plan, the actions of God that include trees, ppl, mice and rocks, are results of Gods absolute power being manifested. it wasn't a man in the sky saying oh this rock will look pretty here. to god there is no beauty or ugliness, no good or bad, it takes a human mind to discern between these extremes and everything is equal under gods eye.

theres a lot more to it but if ur interested in where this is going read Spinoza's book "the ethics" especially the section "On God"


he was the first biblical critic and created an idea of God from the ground up that wasnt reliant on hearsay and didnt depict him as a white bearded man sitting on a cloud.

ima definitely look into this book... major props...

[4anybody...]

^^^^ Yeah I'm with El is this one. You got to explain this one. I don't think you can prove either. It is just one of them things. I'm more interested in what people think about this subject. The real question is the one I asked, lol. I don't care about "the real question is what are your morals and how do you come justify them" I want to know what you think about free will. Is it an illusion or what?


basically, "free will" is an idea that has been discussed as long as there have been people thinking about a higher power and no one has come to a consensus because of the circular nature of the logic which has been discussed here in the previous posts

so when i said it's a "perennial conundrum" or a "paradox", basically i was kind of using $20 words to say this

Anyways, i based this idea for this comment from a book im reading that briefly mentions how today, a lot of writers use the term knowing full well that there is no clear answer to it and thinking about it should create more ?s than answers thereby confusing the reader to the point of aggreement thru intellectual fatigue and its ensuing acquiescence. It's a strategy used to "sound" like you really understand the true nature of life, giving you legitimation in the eyes of your readers or listeners.

also, as ur wiki article points out, ppl have very diverse and complex ideas about it (and they are also varied within these traditions). And those ideas had certain implications for how to live in this world and what's right and wrong. for example, u cant separate the "puritan" idea of predestination from their belief that u have to have economic success to demonstrate that predistination--the ideas go hand in hand.

so, for those reasons, discussions of only "free will", to me, is really a waste of time. But because free will can imply so much about what we value in this world, our code of ethics and how society should be set up--that's why i think that there is a "real question"

[Dr. ibarfly Jones]

fair enough, I still disagree because my question is the real question. If you want to pose a different one by all means. My question is if free will goes against god's plan. You want to discuss code of ethics create a thread and I'll respond. Still going back to a comment you made earlier. I am not asking for proof. I am asking to better understand a person's perspective on the subject. Knowledge is never a waste of time.

[Nikola Tesla]

Then I don't see how you miss the contradiction. If man has free will then God's can know or design something to be because he has no idea of the outcome? If God does have a plan then the holocaust, the building of the pyramids, 9/11, my daughter's birth is all part of this divine plan? You can have both. Unless you are an expert in fitting a square peg into a circular fitting.

If God's knows all how can you be punished for your choices when he created you and he knew what you would do. Duh? This is not towards you Nick. But think about your stance. Please don't recite what you have been taught. I am interested in you using a little reason into this. I use comments made to advance or knocks down opinions I have about things we discuss. But I need you to use some intellect when responding. It is pointless to have an intellect forum and all people do is recite what was told to them. Analyze the questions, think about it from you perspective and then explain.

Mortal men trying to fathom eternal works of the Master with their temporal logic?

I long ago abandoned worldly wisdom (for the wisdom of the world is foolish)

I don't deal with perspective or opinion

I pray to the Most High for Understanding and he's gives it as He sees fit

The Most High knows all...its like watching a movie you've already seen

He doesn't force any of us to do anything...we make our own choices

It seems like man as a whole doesn't want to deal with this

We are to follow his universal laws and do his will

It is said that satan and those who follow him don't understand LOVE

Honestly in the end thats what this is all about...love

Those that don't have a sincere love for the truth wont comprehend anything

Years of study and prayer have let me to this

Why reason? Why Exist.....The death of SELF opens to door to enlightenment

Until one gets rid of that "old man" The Understanding of these matters will be sealed off....

christians (sun god)..muslims (moon god)...atheists (self)...are all one in the same...pagan idol worshipers

While caught up in those systems of slavery ...and this matrix called reality
Spiritual matters are not within your reach.

[ST1llmatic]

yo could believe what you want but i dont need a higher being to understand love. i dont believe in god and i am not empty. i dont need things explained to me i.e why are we here, how did we come to exist. i could cope with life on my own. if you need a higher power to deal with your life, by all means nobody is stopping you, but your logic is just what you have conditioned yourself to believe. different life experiences will lead to different philosophies, no need to argue about it or try to convince one that the other is wrong

[Dr. ibarfly Jones]

Mortal men trying to fathom eternal works of the Master with their temporal logic?

I long ago abandoned worldly wisdom (for the wisdom of the world is foolish)

I don't deal with perspective or opinion

I pray to the Most High for Understanding and he's gives it as He sees fit

The Most High knows all...its like watching a movie you've already seen

He doesn't force any of us to do anything...we make our own choices

It seems like man as a whole doesn't want to deal with this

We are to follow his universal laws and do his will

It is said that satan and those who follow him don't understand LOVE

Honestly in the end thats what this is all about...love

Those that don't have a sincere love for the truth wont comprehend anything

Years of study and prayer have let me to this

Why reason? Why Exist.....The death of SELF opens to door to enlightenment

Until one gets rid of that "old man" The Understanding of these matters will be sealed off....

christians (sun god)..muslims (moon god)...atheists (self)...are all one in the same...pagan idol worshipers

While caught up in those systems of slavery ...and this matrix called reality
Spiritual matters are not within your reach.


well thank god Jonas Salk (polio vaccine), Selman Abraham Waksman (found the first antibiotic for tuberculosis), and many other that could of felt the way you do didn't. Don't know why you are upset with people trying to gain an understanding of others and their beliefs. Hence what is needed more in the world, tolerance and understanding. If you fear that I feel for you. This is not out to disprove anything. We are using intellect and understanding to have a discussion.

[Lord Almighty]

Muslims moon god? Huh? Where did you get that 'wisdom' from? Pagan idol worshipers? Think again.

[Dr. ibarfly Jones]

Funny I was watching a show today and the topic was "freedoms in the US" the guy said freedom are so we can do stupid things. He said there would be no need for freedom if everyone did as told. Freedom is so we can do stupid stuff. It took a few minutes to let that swim around in my head. Damn, he was on to something, lol.

[Lord Almighty]

Funny I was watching a show today and the topic was "freedoms in the US" the guy said freedom are so we can do stupid things. He said there would be no need for freedom if everyone did as told. Freedom is so we can do stupid stuff. It took a few minutes to let that swim around in my head. Damn, he was on to something, lol.

And if gravity didn't exist, we'd all be able to fly. I don't see his point.....

[4anybody...]

fair enough, I still disagree because my question is the real question. If you want to pose a different one by all means. My question is if free will goes against god's plan. You want to discuss code of ethics create a thread and I'll respond. Still going back to a comment you made earlier. I am not asking for proof. I am asking to better understand a person's perspective on the subject. Knowledge is never a waste of time.

yeah, we do need to talk about our ideas, get them out there. so ur right, it's not a waste of time.

i'm just saying that after u start seeing the fact that there's all these different opinions as to what free will is, each one as valid as the next, then its good to look for what unifies these ideas. and the creation of ethics is what unifies them.

but to go on and on about proving your viewpoint (which can't be rationally proved anyways) is a waste

[Lord Almighty]

Funny I was watching a show today and the topic was "freedoms in the US" the guy said freedom are so we can do stupid things. He said there would be no need for freedom if everyone did as told. Freedom is so we can do stupid stuff. It took a few minutes to let that swim around in my head. Damn, he was on to something, lol.

Is he trying to say that those who don't "do as they're told" are the only ones to have their freedoms taken away?

If that's the case then what was Slavery? A grand scale police movement to take away freedom from those that didn't do as they were told?

So everyone must do as they're told? And who tells everyone what to do? And why must we listen to these so-called powers that be?

[Dr. ibarfly Jones]

If a person takes a second to read what I say they will see I'm not anti religion. I pro religion if it makes you a good person. I'm anti beheadings, suicide bombers, female circumcisions, and any other injustice done under the name of religion. I treat the religions with respect. However, I feel you should be able to question everything as long it is an honest question and not an attack.



Ask a deeply religious Christian if he’d rather live next to a bearded Muslim that may or may not be plotting a terror attack, or an atheist that may or may not show him how to set up a wireless network in his house. On the scale of prejudice, atheists don’t seem so bad lately.

[Dr. ibarfly Jones]

And if gravity didn't exist, we'd all be able to fly. I don't see his point.....

lol, I don't see your point. But what he was saying is freedom in a society is important for it to grow. without freedom and challenges it remains stagnant. Freedom in society allows people to express themselves whether it is a very violent scene in a movie, profanity on a record, sky diving , verbally blasting the president, protesting the use of animals. Freedom is a nice thing. I alway joke people hate liberals, but if it were not for liberal and free thinking individuals african americans would still be slaves.

[Lord Almighty]

African Americans ARE free thinking individuals. They don't need free thinking liberals to "free" us from "slavery".

You're telling me that if it weren't for free thinking liberal white dudes, african american slaves would still be "slaves"? You don't think that over time they would simply revolt and fight back? So are you then saying that for some reason, African American slaves somehow lacked the ability to stick up for themselves? (which is SOMEWHAT true, but not entirely possible if you think this poor mentality would still remain in place for an additional 300 years)

Freedom cannot be contained or distributed. Malcolm X taught us that nobody can take freedom from you, if you're a man, take it for yourself.

Am I glad I can "freely" express my voice without being executed? Sure.

But even if I lived in a society where I could be shot for expressing freedom of speech, I'd still be utilizing my freedom.....I may get shot (which sucks), but I'm free to make that choice if I want to.

Freedom isn't like money, it can't be witheld, withdrawn or withstanded. Freedom is a force, a right that all human beings inherit upon birth. We're all free.

[Dr. ibarfly Jones]

African Americans ARE free thinking individuals. They don't need free thinking liberals to "free" us from "slavery".

Freedom cannot be contained or distributed. Malcolm X taught us that nobody can take freedom from you, if you're a man, take it for yourself.

Am I glad I can "freely" express my voice without being executed? Sure.

But even if I lived in a society where I could be shot for expressing freedom of speech, I'd still be utilizing my freedom.....I may get shot (which sucks), but I'm free to make that choice if I want to.

Freedom isn't like money, it can't be witheld, withdrawn or withstanded. Freedom is a force, a right that all human beings inherit upon birth. We're all free.

you are all over the place. You need to stop hitting the similac so hard. Conservative mindset in the US during slavery didn't want to see change. It was the people that had a liberal view of america that spurred the change. It were the liberal minded people that helped with the underground railroad taught the slaves to read and went against the status quo. That is what can happen in a free society. A closed state doesn't allow open view points or contradictions to its authority. Don't tell me you disagree with that.

[Dr. ibarfly Jones]

Freedom cannot be contained or distributed. Malcolm X taught us that nobody can take freedom from you, if you're a man, take it for yourself.



easy to say that when you can. As the people who are being held hostage if that is true. As anyone who has lived under a warlord, or in an area controlled by tribes, gangs, or the russian government.

[Lord Almighty]

you are all over the place. You need to stop hitting the similac so hard. Conservative mindset in the US during slavery didn't want to see change. It was the people that had a liberal view of america that spurred the change. It were the liberal minded people that helped with the underground railroad taught the slaves to read and went against the status quo. That is what can happen in a free society. A closed state doesn't allow open view points or contradictions to its authority. Don't tell me you disagree with that.



I don't disagree with this fact.....because it IS a fact. But what I disagree with is the notion that if it were not for liberal minded people, slaves wouldn't have the ability to simply liberate themselves. What I'm saying is that nobody GAVE freedom to slaves. The freedom was always there (just look at Nat Turner as an example of a slave that utilized his freedom). What the liberal US government did is make slavery illegal....which is cool n all but eventually we would have taken it ourselves. I refuse to believe that we would still remain slaves in 2007 had it not been for liberal minded White folks.

[Dr. ibarfly Jones]

interesting. Then I let you explain how it could have succeded without the establishment reversing the status quo stance for slavery themselves. Every great plan has an inside man. How could this be accomplished without people inside the community working against the community? Dude, Nat Turner was on a small scale. It isn't like the whole state of Virgina was under his control. Where he had access to tax moneya nd was making import and export moves with nearby states.

[Lord Almighty]

easy to say that when you can. As the people who are being held hostage if that is true. As anyone who has lived under a warlord, or in an area controlled by tribes, gangs, or the russian government.

I live in North America...Canada to be exact......a country currently being run by Steven Harper aka Mini Bush........that's bad enough. Are you trying to tell me that to someone living under extreme oppression, the aspect of freedom does not exist? Rights and liberties are one thing.....freedom is larger than that. Freedom pretty much means you have the ability to do as you please. Everyone in the world has that. It's sad to say that in some places though, if you excersize your God-given freedom (or free will), you become punished. That's why "slaves" remain slaves, because they're afraid of what may happen to them if they excersize free will. That doesn't mean they don't have access to freedom though.

Just because you can be killed for acting freely doesn't mean you aren't free....it simply means you live in a harsh environment lead by unjust human beings who try as they might, attempt to hide your freedom behind threats of humiliation, isolation, inprisonment, torture or execution.

If I flew a plane down to Virginia and held a gun to your head and told you "You're not allowed to talk or else I'll shoot you", chances are you wouldn't talk out of fear of being killed. Not because you aren't able to talk. You were able to talk before I threatened you but now it's your FREEDOM to choose whether you want to call my bluff or not. It's entirely up to you........you could think "this nigga aint gon shoot me, I'm gonna talk!"......that's freedom right there.

How was Nelson Mandela able to see freedom beyond the concrete walls and steel bars of prison? Freedom exists no matter where you are, no matter who you are.

This is the essence behind free will.

[Lord Almighty]

interesting. Then I let you explain how it could have succeded without the establishment reversing the status quo stance for slavery themselves. Every great plan has an inside man. How could this be accomplished without people inside the community working against the community? Dude, Nat Turner was on a small scale. It isn't like the whole state of Virgina was under his control. Where he had access to tax moneya nd was making import and export moves with nearby states.

So are we talking about freedom or power & control? Just because the whole state of Virginia wasn't under his control doesn't mean he wasn't excersizing his free will.
You're losing me with your responses ibarfly are we still talking about freedom? Because if so, your above statement doesn't quite make sense to me....what doesn having access to tax dollars and import/exporting have to do with being free?
And for your information.......I don't drink Similac. Neither does my son, it tastes awful and it's just barely more nutritous than a bowl of gravel.

[Dr. ibarfly Jones]

ypu are mixing up free will and personal freedoms as. think about what I have ben talking about as personal freedoms. a state can pretty much control that. no one can control free will.

[Lord Almighty]

A state can control your civil/human rights.....maybe even some of your liberties, but not your freedom. You still haven't answered the Mandela question.......

To claim that someone has no freedom simply because their physical body is in chains or in prison (meanwhile, their spirit and mind go beyond the barriers) is a very naive and defeatist way of thinking.

And just so we're clear, this is a thread regarding free will, so excuse me if I'm sticking to the original topic.

[Dr. ibarfly Jones]

First nobody is as responsible for Mnadela's freedom as F.W. de Klerk. As read this... In February 1985 President P.W. Botha offered Mandela conditional release in return for renouncing armed struggle. Coetzee and other ministers had advised Botha against this, saying that Mandela would never commit his organisation to giving up the armed struggle in exchange for personal freedom. Mandela indeed spurned the offer, releasing a statement via his daughter Zindzi saying "What freedom am I being offered while the organisation of the people remains banned? Only free men can negotiate. A prisoner cannot enter into contracts."[13]

I see what he saw. I understand what you are saying but I disagree with you if you are talking about personal freedom. Mandela mind and spirit went beyound the prison because he was aided by organizations and celebraties all over the world for the cause he a was key figure in. Without people all over the globe voice opposition to South America's treatment of african's and Klerk's motivation t make change nothing would have happened. That is how I saw it.

[Lord Almighty]

So do you think that if he didn't receive this so-called outside help, he would crumble within the confines of prison both spiritually and mentally? I personally think Mandela was stronger than that.....but if that's how you see it, so be it.


By the way......I've seen enough Wikipedia references to last me a lifetime. Try using an online encyclopedia that isn't dependant on individual user input/hear-say.

[Dr. ibarfly Jones]

So do you think that if he didn't receive this so-called outside help, he would crumble within the confines of prison both spiritually and mentally? I personally think Mandela was stronger than that.....but if that's how you see it, so be it.


By the way......I've seen enough Wikipedia references to last me a lifetime. Try using an online encyclopedia that isn't dependant on individual user input/hear-say.I'm saying without the factual outside influences he would not have gotten out or aparthied would not ended. As for his resolve. He was an incredible strong man, and he knew there was worldwide support for him and his people's cause. That probably kept him going. I never read his autobio. So I can not say for sure. I am more impressed by the actions of the worldwide community than one person. But you got to give it up to Klerk. He did the unthinkable. To tell your people that creating a inclusive soiciety is the way to go was brave. Brave men get assasinated before they can make change. Still back to the point Mandela was strong. No doubt be his achievement in helping gain freedom for his people was great. I am not going to place him on a pedestal. The systematic destruction of the tool used to keep arficans down is what impressed me. It kind of gives you hope that people sometimes will do the right things sometimes. I don't idolize people. That's not me.

Symm this whole thread we are talking about two different things, lol.

[Dr. ibarfly Jones]

lol, wiki works and doesn't work. I'm cool with it as long as you use it as a oint of reference. Not as an answer to a question.

[Lord Almighty]

^lol so true. You always brings up interesting discussions my man. I wish I had time/energy to sit and think out topics and threads but I prefer to let others start and I chime in whenever needed, lol. Plus it's hard to think when you have a baby drooling all over your new Phat Farm shirt.

[Dr. ibarfly Jones]

no doubt. I'm on vacation so I'm just breaking up fights between my two girls and watching the news. Learning about Bhutto and the spiral of destruction the world is heading to.

[Lord Almighty]

Haha! Is the glass always half-empty for you Vomit?

[Dr. ibarfly Jones]

yeah

[Lord Almighty]

At least you're honest. lol

[DA_LOW]

yeah, I had to laugh. What if you don't believe in a higher being you go ape shit? I think without the fear of punishment in the afterlife most people have common sense and morals. But let's not get off track on the subject of this thread.



LAUGHTER??? THROUGH OBSERVATION THATS EXACTLY WHAT WILL HAPPEN. Why do people go to church? They look for guidance, hope, and a sense of purpose. What happened when Passion of christ came out? Thousands of criminals across the globe turned themselves in. You can give the mere mortal credit for having common sense, but the truth is evident. The fear of punishment in the afterlife goes right along with what I stated.

[Dr. ibarfly Jones]

wtf? please don't make me go back to the old ibar and ask if you are retarded or just an actor acting retarded. by your thinking all non practicing religious people and people that don't believe in god are deranged have no sense or morals. I don't know what truth you are talking about. maybe the one you choose to create from the thing we call faith. I think u are slighty off your rocker. hey. here is a little clue. you want to know the true reason why people go to church. could it be from the fact they are usually indoctrinated into a religion as a child taught whatever dogma the are taught. except it and pass it to the next generation? maybe that has a little to do with it. wild freaking guess. but I'm going with that based on my observations. you are giving credit to a higher being for crimminals who committed crimes and later turned themselves in. where was the divine intervention during the act? you can't pick and choose god's influence in our lives. that is silly. yeah I am going attribute good act towards him and bad towards man. god mostly likely created both aspects to man good and evil. it is silly for man to try to attribute these descriptions of acts to a deity. if everything is created by god evil is too. it obvious serves some purpose. what it is I don't know or care but you can't have it both ways.

[Wil Munny]

my bad, did I bump into this?

[ST1llmatic]

if god is all powerful and could create big ol titties like the ones in your avatar, can he create titties so big not even he could lift them?

[Wil Munny]

lol, nice play on can god make a stone to heavy he can't lift. But I doubt if he existed he could life any stone due to the fact there is no mention of him having a physical form.

[ElCount]

God is capable of Telekinesis and has powers that only the metaphysical can understand ibarfly.

Didn't you watch Bruce Almighty?

[Lord Almighty]

All True & Living God sitting right here........

The "stone" is merely a respresentation of a mental barrier or added stress that we all put ourselves through.

So to that question I say "Yes" it's VERY possible for (I) "God" create a heavy enough "stone" (stress) that even I can't lift it.....

Another term for this is "putting too much on one's plate".

[Wil Munny]

God is capable of Telekinesis and has powers that only the metaphysical can understand ibarfly.

Didn't you watch Bruce Almighty?
I don't watch comedies.

[Lord Almighty]

I don't watch comedies.

lol.......That explains a lot.

[Miss Teri]

OK I'm going to put my OPINION...take it as that..I am not saying you should think it is wrong or right...but it is mine:
I think they both coexist...God has a plan for all of us, for he is our Father and our creater...But he does understand that we can make decisions on our own, it is what we do in these situations that determine whether we have followed God's path or we have been led astray....if we have been led astry then we have sinned and got off of the righteous path and took a detour and need to ask for forgiveness.....Think of it this way:
If you are a parent you will understand a lot better.... You have a child, you look at that babies beautiful innocent face and look at you loved one and say "one day our son/daughter is going to be a teacher"...So you and your partner scrimp and save money for them to go to college to be a teacher , OK your child goes to school to be a teacher and then decides to become a lawyer after spending numerous dollars and waisting years of their life, this is heartbreaking to you but your child says they are sorry but they see themselves in another direction...you forgive them and move forward....that doesn't mean you didn't have hopes and dreams and a plan for that child because they didn't follow through with what your idea for them was...it also doesn't mean they failed...they took a different road is all which is their free will......That's how I view things anyways.....again this is MY OPINION....As far as the another opinion that was brought up....I believe in religion...and Yes I feel I have to believe...I lost my little Brother years back and I refuse to think that I will never see him again...I hold on to the hope that I will live my life and be rewarded at the end with getting to be with him and others I have and will lose during my way...If you don't believe then that is on you and I respect that...we are each entitled to our own opinions and that's cool beause in the end you are responsible for only you

[Wil Munny]

It's Throwback Monday!!!!!

[lokee40]

free will is a gift.....

God's plan is going to happen regardless.....

when the moses was wandering in the desert, his journey should have only taken him 11 days.....

but since the people were losing faith in God, taking up false idols to worship, and practicing other religions - all while on the way to the promised land - God made them wander for 40 years.....

basically killing off the generation, so that a new generation would inherit the promised land.....

that doesn't mean that first generation didn't enjoy everlasting life after death.....

but their actions on earth, made for tough life here - at least for 40 years wandering the the desert between Egypt and Israel.....

same thing for us.....

along the journey to the promised land, we have free will as a gift from God.....

how we use that free will, ultimately will sow seeds that will bear fruit - according to God's timing.....

however, nothing can separate his believers/followers from his love.....

[~y~]

Free will is God's plan.

[The Last Mohican]

I am not going to lie. I am of course a true believer or free will. That in turns has a huge contradiction with God knowing everything and creating every and things happening because it was in God's Plan. I don't think you can have both. How do you veiw things? Do we have free will or are we playing parts in a play that God has created for mankind?




I currently do not believe in a God or Being that independantly organises and creates situations the universe.
That is not how the universe operates.
A person who sees clearly can observe this.


Nor do i believe in free will.
Nothing in existance is free from the influence and conditioning of everything else.
There is nothing in existance that is seperate and unaffected by everything else.
Therefore the term 'free' in this situation is being misused.
As for Will... 'Will' is simply a mental formation, a product of the mind.... just like hate, love, craving, motivation, ect.


Neither of the two choices seem to be of truth.