can you consider your body your own...?

[vexed less]

i feel that being of this world your body cannot be considered your own.
...that is as senseless as saying that the peice of land you stand on at this moment is yours.

during my many meditation practices i have come to understand that my body doesnt belong to me, ...for example when a fly, ant, bug... ect. lands on my arm i dont feel the need to brush it away... i simple observe it and accept that ridding it is senseless.
i try apply this method to my life in moments of fustration and stress.

....any thoughts on why people believe that their body belongs to them?

[ST1llmatic]

my body is my own. i do whatever i want to it. some things are destructive i.e i smoke and drink. if i wanted a tat i would get one, if i wanted a piercing i could get that done too. and if insects land on me im smacking them the fuck off. if its not my own then who's is it

[Dr. ibarfly Jones]

All I know is I own my wife's mind, body, and soul. As for my own physical being... doesn't matter to me as long as I possess my mind.

[vexed less]

my body is my own. i do whatever i want to it. some things are destructive i.e i smoke and drink. if i wanted a tat i would get one, if i wanted a piercing i could get that done too. and if insects land on me im smacking them the fuck off. if its not my own then who's is it



...just because you can place a tat on it doesnt mean its yours.... i can paint a picture on a wall but that doesnt give me ownership of the wall.
...ultimately u have minimal control over your body.... what makes you think its your own.... it is subject to this world and could cease to exist is an instant... yet u some how believe it belongs to you?

[ST1llmatic]

the world does not own my body. the fact that it could cease to exist in a second does not mean i do not own it. if i have a dollar it is my dollar. i own it. if i burn it, it ceases to exist, but that doesnt mean it wasnt mine. also your analogy doesnt really work. you could desecrate somebody else's property without it being yours. if i go and mob up somebody else's wall it is an act of vandalizing somebody else's property, not an act of overtaking ownership. i a person came up to me and stabbed me i would be left with a scar. they marked my body but it is still mine

[vexed less]

All I know is I own my wife's mind, body, and soul. As for my own physical being... doesn't matter to me as long as I possess my mind.

lmao at u ownin uur wifes mind, body and soul.... ima ride that one off as a joke...lol

...as for your mind, why do you think you own it? ...having temporary control over something doesnt mean you have ownership.

i guess what im gettin at in this thread is that it is impossible to truelly own something.... therefore it is senseless getting worked up over instances where things you think you own are being threatened.

[ST1llmatic]

so if somebody came to your home booted you the fuck out and moved their shit in you would just shrug it off because in reality you dont own n e thing

[vexed less]

the world does not own my body. the fact that it could cease to exist in a second does not mean i do not own it. if i have a dollar it is my dollar. i own it. if i burn it, it ceases to exist, but that doesnt mean it wasnt mine. also your analogy doesnt really work. you could desecrate somebody else's property without it being yours. if i go and mob up somebody else's wall it is an act of vandalizing somebody else's property, not an act of overtaking ownership. i a person came up to me and stabbed me i would be left with a scar. they marked my body but it is still mine

first off, i never said that the world owned your body... but that your body is of this world...

...secondly what make you think that a dollar is yours? ....coz u hold it in your hands? ...coz the government has it written on a peice of paper somewhere that it belongs to you?

...you are truelly misunderstanding what i am implying... everything i am saying is being ignored through your examples....

...how can someone truelly own something? .....ownership is an illusion.
just because you have temporary control over an object does not mean you control it.

[vexed less]

so if somebody came to your home booted you the fuck out and moved their shit in you would just shrug it off because in reality you dont own n e thing


lmao...i would like to think i could just shrug it off... at this stage in my life, no, i wouldnt be able to.... i hope that within the years to come i could do it without hesitation....

[ST1llmatic]

ownership may be an abstract idea like time. just cuz it is abstract does not mean that we dont abide by the rules of ownership. i used a dollar as a simple example just like you used the wall as an example so i dont see what your gripe is with that. n e way the fact that it is in my possession does make it my own under most circumstances. if i borrow a dollar it is not really mine cuz i have to pay it back. i am not ignoring or misunderstanding n e thing you have said, i am just disagreeing with what you say

[ST1llmatic]

your answer to my question contradicts your philosophy of ownership. why couldnt you shrug it off if you say that "it is impossible to truelly own something.... therefore it is senseless getting worked up over instances where things you think you own are being threatened."

[vexed less]

i already answered that, at this moment in my life i am not able to make that step.... but in the years to come i hope i am able to.....

by all means i am not sayin i could put what i preach into practice...but hope that one day i have reached that level...

this thread is merely to express my view on the topic, and to challenge the thoughts of those who encounter it.

[ElCount]

Man if this is what intellectualism and philosophy is all about I will fucking hate it.

If you can accept your own uniqueness and the fact that you have a soul, or spirit or whatever you call it, then you'll accept your mind's individuality and it's ability to reason, think, solve, dwell, be creative etc...Otherwise there's no such thing as intellect.

Our brain is connected to our body, through nerves, veins, enzymes, everything that happens within our body is a chemical change, abiding by the action-reaction process. My eyes send the images on this computer screen to my brain which processes what I'm seeing, my brain connects with the nerves in my body so I type this.

Michael Jordan soars through the air to slam dunk, how does he not own his body? What physical or supernatural force perpetuates or forces him to jump in the air and hang in it? MJ does that shit on his own with his own body.

I can train my body to fight. And I can train my student's body to fight.

But I can throw a punch.

I can't make my student throw a punch, it's up to him to use his own body to throw a punch.

If I catch a bullet to the head is my body not mine anymore? Maybe not cuz I'm dead, and I can't control it like I used to.

Let's take a human vegetable who can't control his body like me or MJ. What makes it not his? He just can't control it, doesn't mean it ain't his.

If I wanna take a bath I will, if I wanna take a jog tomorrow morning I will, nobody else can make me take that bath or take that run so my body is mine in the sense that I own it.

If you want to look at it in a different context that's okay. It's arguable that a man doesn't own his house as a tornado can sweep by and destroy it. That's not to say the house was never owned by him, it's to say the man cannot prevent, foresee, or disown natural disasters. He doesn't "own" the natural disasters, so he can't control them, and if one is to destroy his house he can't do shit about it.

If a man's body catches on fire and he dies does that prove he never owned his body? Nah he just doesn't own the fire.

Personally I feel like these types of arguments are pointless no offense meant vexed.

[ST1llmatic]

^well put

[vexed less]

Man if this is what intellectualism and philosophy is all about I will fucking hate it.

If you can accept your own uniqueness and the fact that you have a soul, or spirit or whatever you call it, then you'll accept your mind's individuality and it's ability to reason, think, solve, dwell, be creative etc...Otherwise there's no such thing as intellect.

Our brain is connected to our body, through nerves, veins, enzymes, everything that happens within our body is a chemical change, abiding by the action-reaction process. My eyes send the images on this computer screen to my brain which processes what I'm seeing, my brain connects with the nerves in my body so I type this.

Michael Jordan soars through the air to slam dunk, how does he not own his body? What physical or supernatural force perpetuates or forces him to jump in the air and hang in it? MJ does that shit on his own with his own body.

I can train my body to fight. And I can train my student's body to fight.

But I can throw a punch.

I can't make my student throw a punch, it's up to him to use his own body to throw a punch.

If I catch a bullet to the head is my body not mine anymore? Maybe not cuz I'm dead, and I can't control it like I used to.

Let's take a human vegetable who can't control his body like me or MJ. What makes it not his? He just can't control it, doesn't mean it ain't his.

If I wanna take a bath I will, if I wanna take a jog tomorrow morning I will, nobody else can make me take that bath or take that run so my body is mine in the sense that I own it.

If you want to look at it in a different context that's okay. It's arguable that a man doesn't own his house as a tornado can sweep by and destroy it. That's not to say the house was never owned by him, it's to say the man cannot prevent, foresee, or disown natural disasters. He doesn't "own" the natural disasters, so he can't control them, and if one is to destroy his house he can't do shit about it.

If a man's body catches on fire and he dies does that prove he never owned his body? Nah he just doesn't own the fire.

Personally I feel like these types of arguments are pointless no offense meant vexed.

^^^lmao no offense taken...but if u think challengin your mind is pointless then how do you expect to take steps forward.

u still misunderstood the whole point of the thread.
...a pro-control arguement in relation to ownership is as senseless as argueing a pro-mayweather arguement in a wrestling debate.

ask yourself does a slave owner own a slave just because he has control over the slaves freedom?

CONTROL DOES NOT EQUAL OWNERSHIP.
therefore every example you gave me is irrelivant........ the walks, baths n so forth may be a choice that you made, but just because you have temporary control over something does not mean that you own it.

ownership is a illusion

...if you told me that ownership does exist in your reality then i cant dissprove it. But i hope that i have challenged your beliefs enough for you to question the things in your life that you see as facts.

peace.

[ST1llmatic]

you are preaching what you dont practice.

[vexed less]

smh... i indicated/stated in my first post of this thread that i do apply this idea that i am discussin to my life, just on a small scale... such as the meditation example i gave..... also i apply what it when i find myself in minor altercations with other people... such as road rage...or when a dude is doing something that is fustrating me.

....in no way would i be able to be booted out of my home like in the example that you gave.... BUT i did state twice that i hope i can reach that level of understanding and acceptance.

[ST1llmatic]

although you do apply it on a small scale you still do not abide by this belief that ownership is merely an illusion. i could hope to be a millionaire, or that my loved ones do not get hurt, or that racism and prejudice came to an end. however hoping is not the same as taking action. i agree the house example is a bit blown out of proportion, but it still reinforces the fact that you feel entitled to your possessions because you are the rightful owner

[ElCount]

^^^lmao no offense taken...but if u think challengin your mind is pointless then how do you expect to take steps forward.

u still misunderstood the whole point of the thread.
...a pro-control arguement in relation to ownership is as senseless as argueing a pro-mayweather arguement in a wrestling debate.

ask yourself does a slave owner own a slave just because he has control over the slaves freedom?

CONTROL DOES NOT EQUAL OWNERSHIP.
therefore every example you gave me is irrelivant........ the walks, baths n so forth may be a choice that you made, but just because you have temporary control over something does not mean that you own it.

ownership is a illusion

...if you told me that ownership does exist in your reality then i cant dissprove it. But i hope that i have challenged your beliefs enough for you to question the things in your life that you see as facts.

peace.

Nah I don't think challenging my mind is pointless at all quite the contrary, I think your application of the meaning of ownership is different than mine or Still's, we all look at it in different contexts.

I say I feel like it's pointless cuz to me this argument is like arguing what is god to you? God may mean The Holy Savior Jesus Christ to you, Allah to St1ll, and Nature to me.

And to answer your question if that slave is programmed to be slavelike in every sense of the word to his master then I would say that person owns the slave to a certain extent. Man tells the slave to run, the slave runs. Man tells the slave to get some water, the slave gets some water.

But if man tells the slave to take a shit and there's not enough shit in the slave's excretory system to do that the slave can't take a shit. The slave can't take a piss at the owner's will. So there are things beyond both the slave and the owner's control, not unlike the natural disasters I mentioned which are beyond the control of a homeowner.

Now in the same sense I only own my body to a certain extent. I can play ball, do push-ups but if I get a cramp in my leg I can't help it. If I blackout or faint due to heat exhaustion I can't control that either so I don't own my body 100% so to speak.

To me control is the closest thing you can relay to ownership, if you don't agree what's your definition of ownership?

And once again to me this argument is pointless not because it challenges me to think but because why should I give a fuck whether or not I "own" my body when regardless, I use this body to type to you, go running, and do whatever I want with it?

[vexed less]

although you do apply it on a small scale you still do not abide by this belief that ownership is merely an illusion. i could hope to be a millionaire, or that my loved ones do not get hurt, or that racism and prejudice came to an end. however hoping is not the same as taking action. i agree the house example is a bit blown out of proportion, but it still reinforces the fact that you feel entitled to your possessions because you are the rightful owner


^^^lol....nahh, see thats where u gettin it twisted.... it aint coz i feel i own my house like your implying.... i was takin that question literally... as in the fact that if i getbooted out my crib i wont have enough money to support my current lifestyle....

...its got nothin to do with me thinkin i truelly own my house.... but as a cat who's still in schoolin and trying to make it as an artist it would be impossible for me to continue with my goals and get booted out my crib as well...
...

[ST1llmatic]

if ownership is an illusion why would you use the word "my" as in "my goals" and "my crib" the use of the word "my" connotes ownership. by your logic it is not your crib and the goals would not be yours just because you set them

[vexed less]

And once again to me this argument is pointless not because it challenges me to think but because why should I give a fuck whether or not I "own" my body when regardless, I use this body to type to you, go running, and do whatever I want with it?

...excluding the illusion of 'ownership' of your body/possesions from your thoughts will lead to a much more tolerant, peaceful, and happier mind.
....now i know this may not be what your searching for... and i am not trying to force this on you....
....... but a person getting heated over something that he is believed to have ownership over...(the body).... is as silly as a person getting heated over the fact that one day his house is going to deteriorate.
It is inevitable that the 'ownership' of your body is going to be continually challenged throughout this life time....through aging, death, pain and so forth....and just like in the house example i gave above, your body is subject to this world. Accepting ownership as an illusion takes away the 'them verses us', 'the world verses me' nature of the human mind.... which in turn will help a person understand and accept aging, death, and pain, without judgement.



this further stems onto aspects that coincide with beliefs that i hold... ones which i do not expect you to share...

so all in all the most i can do is give thanks for challenging my view in return...

[vexed less]

if ownership is an illusion why would you use the word "my" as in "my goals" and "my crib" the use of the word "my" connotes ownership. by your logic it is not your crib and the goals would not be yours just because you set them

^^^...nice..... and thats just how hard it is for a person of todays society to comprehend the idea.
as ive said one day i hope to be able to wholly accept this concept...
...as u you just stated and as i have repeatedly shown i am far it though.




To me control is the closest thing you can relay to ownership, if you don't agree what's your definition of ownership?




i am of society so my definition of ownership is much the same as your own.... i am not a super monk that can levitate.......well atleast not yet. lmao

....when i am apart of society i use the same definition as most... when i am of myself i understand that 'ownership' is an illusion....

[vexed less]

props to both you's....
....for my own personal development this discussion/debate has been successful in both reinstating and challenging my ideas.
i hope you's gained as much from it as i did.

peace.

[T-rade]

i am of society so my definition of ownership is much the same as your own.... i am not a super monk that can levitate.......well atleast not yet. lmao

....when i am apart of society i use the same definition as most... when i am of myself i understand that 'ownership' is an illusion....

If your definition of ownership is the same as everybody elses, then you agree on ownership is being the possessor of some thing, meaning having control over it, so El defined it right, if you can control something, you posses it, posses also meaning to own (ofcourse unless you borrowed it from someone else, and then this discussion would take a completely different turn).

I can control my fist hitting someone
I posses the ability to hit
I own the ability to hit...

[vexed less]

^^^lol, man i know u just said that to try piss me off.... lmao, i just spent the last 3 pages explaining that CONTROL DOES NOT EQUAL OWNERSHIP.
i mean u cant control the thoughts that pop into your head, so by ur definition im assuming ur mind isnt ur own.....seein u have no control....
...u cant control the fact that your body will secrete blood if stabbed.... so by your definition seeing u have no control over your body u therefore have no ownership.
....see how ur definition of control=ownership suddenly crumbles.



...i said when i am of myself i see ownership for what it truelly is; an illusion.
...when i am of society i am forced to take on societies definition....
eg.
...if i park my car in the middle of a basketball court while i go to grab somethin to eat and then when i come back the cops ask "do you own this car?"... im not gonna say "...ummm well i believe ownship is an illusion coz...blahh blahh blahh"...

i know what they are talkin about when the say 'own'.... just coz i use that definition doesnt mean i believe it.

[T-rade]

^^^lol, man i know u just said that to try piss me off.... lmao, i just spent the last 3 pages explaining that CONTROL DOES NOT EQUAL OWNERSHIP.
i mean u cant control the thoughts that pop into your head, so by ur definition im assuming ur mind isnt ur own.....seein u have no control....
...u cant control the fact that your body will secrete blood if stabbed.... so by your definition seeing u have no control over your body u therefore have no ownership.
....see how ur definition of control=ownership suddenly crumbles.



...i said when i am of myself i see ownership for what it truelly is; an illusion.
...when i am of society i am forced to take on societies definition....
eg.
...if i park my car in the middle of a basketball court while i go to grab somethin to eat and then when i come back the cops ask "do you own this car?"... im not gonna say "...ummm well i believe ownship is an illusion coz...blahh blahh blahh"...

i know what they are talkin about when the say 'own'.... just coz i use that definition doesnt mean i believe it.

Ofcourse I did:superman2: and control = ownership wasn't my definiton

[Rudra]

I can't be bothered to read all of this, because like Elcount, I tink this discussion is pointless.

One question your fail to even consider is does ownership have to be permanent? Can you be in ownership of something for a little while? It is still true that you HAD owenership over it even when you no longer do.

Lastly, a debate can only happen when two sides dicuss the same point. All this thread has been is confusing in trying to understand what the thread is about. It went from owning your own body but failing to specify in what respect ownership was being discussed. Then it began to ask what defines ownership and then the distinction between ownership and control. And ROFL at some of the examples used.

[vexed less]

Lastly, a debate can only happen when two sides dicuss the same point.

this thread wasnt a debate... and im not sure on why u think it would be.
...i started a thread based on a belief i hold and wanted to discuss.
if this discussion developed some elements of a debate then they were by chance, not intention.

...seein you find some of the examples used so absurd why not state which ones and why.

..."One question your fail to even consider is does ownership have to be permanent?"
...why would i consider 'ownership' being perminent or temporary if ive repeatively stated that i do not beleive that true ownership exists.
if i dont beleiev that something exists it is neither preminent or temp.
...i believe that, alike the concept of 'time', ownership is an illusion created by man.
...if you had read the thread thoroughly, which you admitted you didnt, your questions wouldnt be so irrelivant.

[ST1llmatic]

^burn!!!!!!!!

[Rudra]

this thread wasnt a debate... and im not sure on why u think it would be.
...i started a thread based on a belief i hold and wanted to discuss.
if this discussion developed some elements of a debate then they were by chance, not intention.

...seein you find some of the examples used so absurd why not state which ones and why.

..."One question your fail to even consider is does ownership have to be permanent?"
...why would i consider 'ownership' being perminent or temporary if ive repeatively stated that i do not beleive that true ownership exists.
if i dont beleiev that something exists it is neither preminent or temp.
...i believe that, alike the concept of 'time', ownership is an illusion created by man.
...if you had read the thread thoroughly, which you admitted you didnt, your questions wouldnt be so irrelivant.

I didn;t state examples of stupid analogies because I have a life and because If you target any of the exmaples with the least amount of critical analysis you'll all realise how farical they are.

And I didn't ask any questions at all - so they can't be irrelevant. LOL! The question I did ask was rhetorical i.e. demanded no answer as I was using to explain a point.

And I'd said I hadn;t read the thread fully - so my questions are going to be irrelevant by default.

Lastly - The thread title is a question and you are CONSIDERING the ownsership of your own body. A discussion = a debate.

And wtf is 'perminent'? English please...